The Three Faces of Fascism in America

Episode 421 of 455 · · 6:39

Painting of farmworkers with a pitchfork and a club before a barn and a smoking chimney.

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Fascism, Normies, and the Generational Divide

“Idealism increases in direct proportion to one’s distance from the problem.” Or as I like to say, your ability to put up with a problem is your distance from it.

If you’re over 40, you probably think fascism means Mussolini’s Italy or Hitler’s Germany — a corporatist system where state and business fused into a one-party authoritarian project. That’s the old poli-sci definition I learned back at GWU in 1988.

But ask someone under 40 and you’ll get a different answer. For them, “fascism” covers almost anything patriotic or traditional: flags, borders, religion, even just opposing socialism. That shift comes from Umberto Eco’s Ur-Fascism, which broadened the word into a set of cultural vibes — nationalism, anti-communism, loyalty to the flag. In practice, it became a smear.

By that measure, mainstream Cold War America was “fascist.” McCarthy’s 1950s, Reagan’s 1980s — even Obama, with his deportations and patriotic rhetoric, fits the new label. Which makes no sense to normies who grew up believing their grandparents defeated fascism in WWII.

And there’s a third wrinkle. Today’s activist left uses “anti-fascist” in a totally different way — less Normandy, more Mao. It echoes anti-colonial rage, China’s “century of humiliation,” and revolutionary energy grafted onto Western identity politics. In that frame, antifascism isn’t about fighting Nazis. It’s about dismantling borders, patriotism, capitalism itself.

So we’ve got three definitions colliding. The textbook version: corporatism and dictatorship. The normie version: America killed fascism in 1945. And the activist version: fascism is anything resembling national pride. No wonder generations are talking past each other.

Over-40 Americans hear “fascist” and think Hitler. Under-40 activists hear “fascist” and think Dad with a flag in the yard. And that’s the trap: if everyone is fascist, then the word means nothing.

This is Chris Abraham, and this has been The Chris Abraham Show.

Transcript

Read the full transcript (1,187 words, machine made)

You ever notice how the word fascist is just everywhere these days? It gets slapped on political opponents, on new laws, even on entire countries. But what does it actually mean? Well, it turns out that really depends on who you ask. So how did we get here?

How did one of the most loaded words of the 20th century just break apart to the point where we can't even agree on what we're fighting about anymore? To get our heads around this, we've got to go back in time a bit. The author of our source material? He takes us back to his college days, a time when fascism had a pretty clear, settled definition in political science. It wasn't just a random insult you threw around.

It was a specific thing, a historical system you could point to in a textbook. So what was that original definition? All right, let's start right there with that original meaning, the one that was taught in universities for decades. This is our baseline. You know, we need to understand this before we can figure out how everything got so tangled up.

OK, the keyword here, the one that would have been underlined in your old textbook, was corporatism. This was the economic engine of historical fascism. Now, it's not about big corporations like we think of today. The idea was that society is like a single body, a corpus. In this system, private businesses weren't shut down. Nope.

But they were forced to serve the goals of the state. So your factory, it was yours on paper, but it's real boss was the nation. And this is how fascism sold itself as a kind of third way, something different from both capitalism and communism. See, communism says the state owns everything, right? The factories, the farms, the whole shebang. Fascism said, Nah, you can keep your company, but it has to work for national glory.

It keeps the outer shell of capitalism, but totally hollows it out, swapping the profit motive for the state's big agenda. That distinction is absolutely crucial. So if the definition was once that clear, what on earth happened? Well, over the last few decades, that single academic term just cracked right down the middle, leaving us with two completely contradictory definitions that most people use today. And boom, here it is. This slide lays out the entire communication breakdown. On one side you've got what the author calls the Normie view. For them, fascism is simple.

It's Hitler, it's Nazis and anti fascism. That's the GIS who stormed the beaches of Normandy. But on the other side you have the activist view. And here fascism isn't some historical bad guy. It's the very structure of our society.

Borders, flags, tradition. And just look at the disconnect. The symbols of anti fascism for one group are the literal symbols of fascism for the other. For the normie. This whole idea is just baked into the American identity. It's in the stories our grandparents told. It's in all those old war movies. During the Cold War, America saw itself as the world's number one anti fascist nation.

So for this group, calling America itself fascist just doesn't compute. It's a total contradiction. But for the activist, that same history is actually the problem. They don't see fascism in goose stepping soldiers, they see it in systems of power they believe are fundamentally oppressive. So in this world view, being an anti fascist isn't about defending America, it's about dismantling its traditional structures from the inside out. Now, these two views didn't just pop up out of nowhere, right? They each have their own unique histories, their own intellectual family trees, and if we want to understand why they're so opposed, we have to understand where they came from. You can think of the normie perspective as getting a series of firmware updates over the years. After fascism was defeated in 45, the main enemy for the next 50 years was communism.

Then after 911 it became Islamist terrorism. Each update reinforced this core idea that America is the good guy, the defender against foreign evil ideologies. The activist lineage though, it's drawing from a completely different library. Its intellectual roots aren't really in the fight against Hitler. They're an anti colonial theories and Maoist thought which saw Western nations themselves as the oppressive occupiers. So for them, the real fight isn't against some enemy overseas, it's against the status quo right here at home. And this quote from the source material just hits the nail on the head.

It perfectly captures this tragic disconnect. You have two groups, both looking at the exact same American flag, and one sees a symbol of liberation while the other sees a symbol of oppression. They are operating in two completely separate moral universes. OK, so here's the crucial point. This isn't just some dusty academic debate over definitions. This war over a word has massive real world consequences for whether we can even function as a country. The number one consequence is a total breakdown in communication.

When one side screams we have to fight fascism and they mean things like borders and tradition, and the other side hears we have to fight actual Nazis, well there's no common ground. There's no conversation to be had. We're just shouting at each other in different languages. And what fuels this breakdown is a deep sense of hypocrisy on both sides. The author points to what they call a NIMBY paradox.

Not in my backyard. They use this example. California is a state that talks a big game about inclusion, but it's black population is only 7%, which is actually one of the lower rates in the US. And it's that perceived gap between what people say and what they do that just deepens the distrust and makes any kind of real dialogue feel impossible. The author uses this great metaphor.

Think of the word fascism like an old skateboard. It used to be a specific thing, right? Built for a specific purpose. But now it's been totally repurposed. It's been emptied of its original meaning, corporatism, and it's been filled up with a bunch of new ideas. And now it's just used as a weapon in a totally different fight.

And here is the ultimate mind bending irony of it all. Both sides genuinely see themselves as patriots on a holy crusade. One group truly believes they're saving America from a kind of rising Maoist style communism. The other group truly believes they're saving America from a rising Nazi style fascism. Both of them think they're the real anti fascists. Both think they're the true defenders of democracy. And their definitions are completely, totally irreconcilable.

And that leaves us with a really, really unsettling question. Words. They're the glue that holds a society together. They let us debate, compromise, build something shared. But when a word as powerful and as important as fascism loses all its shared meaning, what happens to the glue?

What's left to hold Anything together?